oneworldtalk

Australia has a better understanding of how to manage diversity and has set clear parameters to keep troubles at bay. The government and people would determine what are acceptable to them. Sorry, no shariah laws in Australia! If you give them an inch, they will take a mile. This is an example of assertion, not multiculturalism.

In Australia, every individual, cultural or religious community can submit applications for permit to construct buildings or conduct activities but the council and the local residents will cast their votes to express their views.

Aboriginals are a different league, being the indigenous peoples who were wrongfully mistreated and deserve to have some of their customary laws integrated, in reserve terrorities.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/muslim-leader-wants-elements-of-sharia-in-australia-20100307-pqlo.html

Yes, every concept is a farce in practice. Multiculturalism is a relatively new idea. Democracy, socialism, and many -isms have proven to be unreal because humans do not live up to ideals they espouse. If we follow strictly by the terms defined by people who have different ideas and experience, it will turn out to be very disappointing and do not fit into the moulds of false promises.

"poor man" : you do realize that we do not live in utopia.



You need to have a good understanding of Australian history and legal system, which stand regardless of whether multiculturalism is a stated policy. Aboriginals have lived in Australia for thousands of years and their sacred sites dates millions of years but white settlers subsequently had to compensate for their wrongdoings and restore some semblance of conscionable conduct. This is unique to Australia. Of course, exceptions have been or would be made for laws of Chinese, French, Greek Australian people, and hence Shariah law is out of question and non-starter. Since the reception of English common law, it remains the mainstay of the legal system. There is no cause for petitioning or agitating for different layers of laws. This is an understanding held by the vast majority of Australians.

Multiculturalism means different things to different people. But most would accept a loose definition to allow preservation of cultural heritage. It should not extend to non-cultural issues or undermine the existing administrative system or impinge on the interests of other sectors or cultures. While Australia took a leaf from North Americans and did not follow the example of the Europeans, most of its policies on migration were conceptualised at home. Australia was fortunate to have visionary Prime Ministers Paul Keating and John Howard who envisaged and preempted problems that would arise from uncontrolled influx of undesirable migrants. Australia has introduced and subsequently strengthened the stringent points system decades ago. (Incidentally, the financial system may be capitalist in form but is tightly regulated to overcome crises that had plagued USA and European countries.) Australians are not under any illusion that multiculturalism would be without problems. But we are battlers and will fix things to avoid serious social and economic crises. Human rights is also a farce if we wish to discuss this on another thread. Public policy makers and analysts, unlike arm chair philosophers, deal with real issues. There is a calibrated scale of priorities, policies and goals to juggle. It is not difficult for the electorate to understand that national interests remain paramount, where consensus is essential ingredient for nationbuilding. No wonder European politicians can't get their act together with time wasted quibbling over elusive concepts. Social problems should be addressed objectively and not always seen through colour tinted lenses just because multiculturalism is in place. For instance, a potential area which needs to be addressed is to investigate and restrict family allowance payments to single mothers and Australians living overseas. This has little to do with or cynically directed at certain cultures. It's a justifiable and rational economic policy that every Australian taxpayer would support strongly.

The media chose to focus on the scary part of an off the cuff comment by Dr Zachariah Matthews when he was answering a question by a member of the audience. He in fact made a clear qualification that Shariah laws will not be considered in Australia because Muslims make up less than 2 per cent of the population in this country. Sorry folks, Shariah laws will never happen in multicultural Australia.

OB, I have studied and understand the origins of the Australian aborigines and I believe I know of the early and modern history of Australia. In fact I probably understand different cultures better than most. Regarding Islam or Sharia law I am thoroughly immersed in its philosophies. So you can assume that I am not innocent of these facts unless you are writing for a wider audience.

When nations insist on upholding "democracy and human rights" rabidly, without a farsighted view of potential dangers to their final and future make-up of their current multicultural set-up, they will be in for a surprise. In a "democracy" where a majority rules, whatever laws that currently exist can change. The Muslims are just waiting for their numbers to come to a significant level before their demands to the changes in the legal systems that currently exist, whether they are in Australia (not that soon), Europe (soon) or North America (not so soon). As Elle has alluded to in his previous postings, the teachings of Islam do not compromise when they have the political power and in the majority. Western nations must insist on integration for new Muslim immigrants and not give in to their religious demands. For the sake of future generations, western countries should impose limits or curtail Muslim intake. However, current liberal western attitudes do not bear well. They are "drunk" with "democracy and human rights".

The video you are about to watch will explain why: (you have a choice of which site to choose from)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GOB5gYHOpA
or

http://www.in.com/videos/watchvideo-demographicproblemwmv-4873755.html
or

http://www.casttv.com/video/8pkk3x/demographic_problem-wmv-video


Some quotations from ELLE need attention and further clarification:

Taqiyya





A Muslim will thus follow whatever the Quran dictates. Islam has not gone through a reformation like Christianity. Remember the days when the Catholics were like the Talibans until Martin Luther came along. Islam has not changed with times and Islamic authorities (form Saudi Arabia) do not tolerate any discourse. Death follows those who whisper dissent. If any Islamic reformation were to happen, it would most likely come from the "liberal western" Muslims in USA.

Multiculturalism will work if one culture will not impose its values on another culture. Live and Let live. Do not do unto others if you do not wish others to do unto you! However, many of us carry with us baggage of ideas from the "BOOK" of the Abrahamic faith which do not allow coexistence. Somehow one group will always want to dominate. The human race is doomed!!

Kebau some insightful comments with this exception:


The Muslims in America are no different from the Muslims in Europe or or Riyadh, or Lahore or Tehran or anywhere else because "all follow the Qur'an." There is no such thing as "a liberal Western Muslim" except that they are still a very tiny minority in percentage of Muslims in America and Canada. But Major Nidal Malik Hasan of Texas is just one example of a self inspired Jihadist by using the Qur'an as his mentor. Just watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVXJaqcoC7k

You will realise the spread and the frequency of the Jihadist activity. Is it subsiding? NO, this is the Century for Islam. And if you do not react it will consume you. Listen to example Mohammad has set for all Muslims:

Bukhari:V4B52N220 "Allah's Apostle (Mohammad) said, 'I have been made victorious with terror.'"

Qur'an:8:12 "I shall terrorize the infidels(non-Muslims.) So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle."

This is what all these Islamic terrorist acts are about, to create fear so that you will cow to Muslims. Why else are they spreading terror over the world? One British Jihadist in his Suicide video said, "Don't mess with Muslims." Shaking his finger at the camera.


Your first senctence is spot on. And you second has to be amplified upon. Muslims take the Qur'an as the 'immutable word of Allah" literally and therefore anyone altering Allah's words will be committing blasphemy.

Therefore, "THE QURAN CAN NEVER GO THROUGH A REFORMATION OR EVEN CHANGE A SINGLE LETTER OF THE QUR'AN. IT IS THE IMMUTABLE WORD OF ALLAH."

This is why anyone hoping that Islam will moderate its stance and ideologies will be disappointed. Their ideology has not changed in 1400 years, not even one millimetre, so do not expect any change ever. You change if you want to, but Islam will not change.

Adherents to Islam according to the holy book are rigid and dogmatic. They are like communists who do not mind forming united front with the enemy out of expedience or marriage of convenience to overcome adversities and return to finish off their temporary allies.

Some security agencies are baffled how fanatical Islamist terrorists are so good at their craft of deception to pass polygraph (lie detection tests) when incriminating evidence points to their culpability.

There exists among the Muslims, Sufis who incorporate mystical elements in their religious practice. The orthodox Shia Muslims tend to be hostile towards Sufism whose beliefs and practices sometimes deviate from the teachings of the Koran. Western educated Muslims may seek solace in their faith off work but they are more easily integrated in western societies.
http://www.oneworldtalk.freeforums.org/will-education-help-jews-and-muslims-t611.html

It is a formidable task and we are running against time. Well educated intellectuals and professionals in the Muslim community should stand up and lead in the reformation; discard the violent and exceptionalist tenets in the Koran to bring it up to date and compatible with the present.

My Jewish friends reject atrocities committed in Palestine by Zionists who push for pure messianic mission in the name of nationalism. We need people who adhere to secular practices more than religion to bring about understanding and accommodation. Education may help to bring about positive changes. Abrahamic faiths have generated fanatics but does not rule outenlightened thinkers rising to the occasion to end the mindless zeal dictated upon them centuries ago.

We find that race, historical culture and economic factors rather than religion have shaped the behaviour and outlook of Australians. My associates in the fields of social work, migrant affairs and education confided that large proportion of Middle Eastern Christians also displayed similar social traits as their Muslim counterparts - parental negligence of large families, fraudulent, inbreeding, anti-social and deception, etc.

However, there are some law abiding and intelligent icons who can motivate their communities to aspire to nobler goals in life than narrow teachings and interpretation of the "holy book". Some successful medical and legal professionals among the Middle Easterners in Australia can be the bridge between the dogmatic and the secular worlds.

This is the sort of inspiring and cooperative spirit of multiculturalism that we should work towards, not extremist segregation.
http://www.oneworldtalk.freeforums.org/post8177.html?hilit=lebanese#p8177

Many Saudis and Muslim Africans youths attend law schools in Australia in recent years. Besides international trade, they hope to better understand and incorporate some of the positive aspects of English common law into their legal system.

elle: I have these observations relating to your comments:
The reason adherents of Islam are rigid and dogmatic because of what they have been taught from childhood and believe in, and that is The Holy Qur'an is the immutable Word of Allah. Most Muslims also take the Qur'an as the literal word of Allah, and will tolerate no other interpretations of the Qur'an. This is the reason there is NO FLEXIBILITY in the interpretation of the Qur'an. Remember too that Mohammad was illiterate, and he was preaching to illiterate camel herders and wandering nomads of the desert who needed simple words they could understand and appreciate. Literary sophistication and allegories were not the order of the day in the 7th century AD. This is why everyone should study and understand what Islam's aims are for this world in order to understand what is in store.

The reason why the polygraphs cannot detect anxieties in a Muslim, is probably because Muslims on the whole, do not lie. This is what the West does not understand. Taqiyya (dissimulation's) is a way of life with Muslims. Let me quote:

Quote:

The nomadic people are mainly illiterate, but cunning, and resourceful in order to survive. They are also extremely proud and arrogant people, especially the men who were the heads of families or tribal elders. The masculine Arab culture placed a very high value on ‘honour' associated with his place in the social order of his family, and his tribal group, or his society. It is important that he does not suffer "a loss of face." The importance of honour and status is so important that it often justifies "honour killings" within families. Blood feuds and vendettas are often maintained for generations to defend the honour of long dead ancestors. As an example, Mohammed himself ordered the vengeful murder of all those who mocked or satirised him, as he was an Arab and the loss of face was unacceptable. Those were the codes and the role of men.
“Lying and cheating in the Arab world is not really a moral matter but a method of safeguarding honour and status, avoiding shame, and at all times exploiting possibilities, for those with the wit and cunning for it, it is possible to deftly and expeditiously convert shame into honour on their own account and vice versa for the opponents. If honour is at stake, lies and deceit may be absolute imperatives.” [5]
Thus by skilful manipulations, by dissimulation, deceiving, disguise, lying, confounding, deflection of accusations, it is possible to foil or block or fend off an attack or accusation, and thus turn a humiliation into a victorious outcome and save one’s honour or one’s life. This skill is part of the tribal Bedouin culture and it has been adopted into the Islamic way of life in the defence and protection of Islam. This skill is known as "Taqiyya" and greatly enhances the capabilities of Muslims to defend and promote Islam. This skill, Taqiyya, comes so naturally to Muslims that they are not even aware that they are using it to communicate and to dissimulate Islamic information to the kafir. It is a part of their way of life, instilled since childhood. This trait can also be observed in many other cultures especially in the sub continent of Asia.

http://knol.google.com/k/understanding- ... of_Taqiyya

Hence if a Muslim is lying to protect Allah or Islam, he is not lying, and so why should his pulse rate change?



elle:You are right, that Sufis include some mystical aspects into their form of Islam, and I see these mystical aspects as influences from their pagan or shamanist past, very much like Indonesian Islam where they incorporate shamanistic beliefs into their form of Islam. But in the case of Sufis, I cannot see that they have in any way deviated from the basic orthodox/Qur'anic Islamic practices. Sufis follow orthodox Islam quite rigidly.

See my article on Sufism:
http://knol.google.com/k/sufism-muslim- ... wahhabism#



elle: If you study the profile of all the known Western Islamic Martyrs in 9/11 or 7/7 or Texas Army Camp. Major Nidal Malik Hasan, you will find that all of them have come from established middle-class families, all were well educated even with tertiary degrees, and all were sound of mind and body. Some of the most vociferous proselytisers of Islam are western educated Caucasian converts to Islam, imho. So education or level of intellect is not a criteria for deviation from Islamic orthodoxy. Do not be misled, as the Americans are misled, that education, job opportunities, and financial rewards will steer any Muslim away from orthodox Islam. Islam is not affected by materialism. Don't believe in the American hoax. Only the Donkey work of Jihadism, like wearing of Semtex belts and blowing themselves up, is left to the ignorant illiterate Muslims who believe that Martyrs go immediately to Paradise and all their sins on earth are forgiven.

The violent and exceptional tenets in the Qur'an CANNOT BE BROUGHT UP TO DATE BECAUSE IN ISLAM NO ONE HAS THE AUTHORITY TO ALTER THE WORD OF ALLAH." This is why the Qur'an will never be modified in our lifetimes. ISLAM CANNOT REFORM. IT WAS REFORMED WITH THE LAST PROPHET OF ALLAH BY MOHAMMAD.



elle:For all the reasons I have already given Education will change nothing. Islam is here to stay. There are 1.3 Billion Muslims and demography shows that they will outnumber all other religions soon. Just remember my words well, "Secularism, Multiculturalism, and Liberalism will be the death of the Western Judeo-Christian civilisation unless this present trend is reversed, and soon. There is no other solution as far as I can see.