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 Post subject: Is India a veiled threat or good neighbor?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 7:44 am 
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Quote:
Veiled threat or good neighbor?


15:12, June 19, 2009

By Li Hongmei People's Daily Online

Some are afraid that a fresh border dispute between China and India would become the spark plunging the two neighbors again into a 'partial military action.' And India seems to have been conspiring to create the picture of an imminent war by deploying 60,000-strong additional troops and four SU-30 fighters along the 650-mile unfenced border with China.

The Sino-Indian border dispute dates back to almost half a century ago, when in 1962, China and India fought a serious border war, with Indian troops retreating with a complete defeat. And in 1986, the region, referred to as Southern Tibet since China laid claim to it, suddenly flared up again, as a result of India's continued and enhanced presence in the Chinese territory.

Decades have elapsed since the border war, but Indians still look on China through the tinted lens, which could merely produce untrue pictures and even distortions. As an Indian military official put it, 'Indians maintain the same national sentiments towards China as the way the Chinese do at the mention of Japan and Japanese,' many Indians actually have very subtle impression upon China, which has been translated into a very complicated mindset—awe, vexation, envy and jealousy—in the face of its giant neighbor.

The reason for this mentality is multi-faceted, and brought about by both historical factors and reality. In 1947, when India freed itself from the British colonization and won independence, it was one of the global industrial powers, ranking Top 10 in the world and far ahead of the then backward China. But today, China's GDP has tripled that of India and per capita income doubled, which turns out to be a totally unacceptable fact to many Indians. And with China's galloping economic growth since its adoption of the reform and opening up policy in late 1970s, the wealth gap between China and India has increasingly widened.

On top of that, some Western powers have been inciting India to challenge China, and even insidiously convince India that China would be the 'greatest obstacle' threatening India's rise. To feed its ambitions, the West has gone so far as to devise ways to extol India as a potentially No.1 democracy in Asia, but meanwhile intentionally play down China's social and economic progress.

India, on the other hand, draws the Western hint trying for dear life to surpass China. For years, it has also attempted, but in vain, to suppress China by taking advantage of its 'friendship' with the West. Obsessed with the crazy idea of 'enemy's friend being enemy,' India has gone out of its way to blemish the brotherly ties between China and Pakistan, which India regards as its arch-foe, even staking out a position that Pakistan would have no courage to challenge it without the back-up of China.

Indian people have heavily relied upon its media coverage to learn about China. Unfortunately, the Indian media have long been so accustomed to calibrating to curry favor with the Western anti-China forces that they invariably present their readers with biased information and fabricated stories about China. This will further deepen the gap between the two peoples, and fuel the national discontent against China among ordinary Indians. Additionally, India media seem always overzealous in spreading the so-called 'China Threat' theory, manipulating its audience and fanning up an intense feud over China.

Indian government, instead of working in a constructive direction to clear up its people's misunderstandings about China, which has gravely hampered the normal development of the bilateral relations, has consistently adopted a hostile foreign policy toward China, in an effort to win the support from its hawkish MPs and strength its rein in the nation. Under the pretext of 'China Threat', India finally launched a nuclear test in 1998. Only in recent years, Indian government shifted to a more pragmatic stance in dealing with China with the aim to enhance the bilateral cooperation.

Emerging from the dust of border dispute, Chinese President Hu Jintao and India PM Manmohan Singh appeared hand-in-hand Tuesday on the same arena of the first ever BRIC summit, hosted by Russia. This seems to deliver a message to the outside world that, plagued by the global financial crisis, both of the Asian giants need to reach out to each other seeking more cooperation rather than confrontation. 'Both sides should make a steady progress in pushing for dialogue and cooperation,' as President Hu was cited as saying.

But what is more irritating, Asia Development Bank (ADB) recently adopted the Country Partnership Strategy for India (2009-2012), involving disputed areas between China and India. The $2.9 billion plan approved this week by the ADB board includes the financing of projects in the so-called 'Arunachal Pradesh', an area which India regards as its 24th state, but actually much of it being part of China's Tibet Autonomous Region.

ADB's unbecoming program proves counterproductive, in that it has again dealt a blow to the already rickety China-India relationship. And moreover, the active steps lately taken by the leaders from both sides to thaw the feud would be more or less hobbled by it.


While many of the comments made in the above article about India are true, there are some aspects that have been overlooked.

Online comments by many Indians, especially those in the “strategic community” reveal an attempt to con the west, especially the US for funds and advanced technologies by adopting a high anti-China posture. India has recently stepped up her anti-China postures like the military moves on the borders, her crazy attacks on China even after the successful vote at Nuclear Supplier Group and the noisy banning of the import of Chinese toys.

India realizes that she could no longer compete with China in national development or for regional or international standing by herself, but with the US behind her, she could instantly become the top power in Asia. The world has seen how nuclear outlaw India with US support is above international laws on nuclear non-proliferation and how small countries who are long time nuclear non-proliferation champions were disgracefully bullied into non-opposition and called Chinese stooges attempting to derail the infamous US-Indian Nuclear Deal. On hindsight, China should have done the right thing and veto the Deal at the Nuclear Supplier Group meeting, instead of trying to find a compromise solution to the two opposing groups.

Many Indians are nostalgic of the regional hegemonic days of British India and now the only hope for the resurrection of past glories lies on the birth of an American India. The world has seen how a prototype looks like during the campaign for the infamous US-Indian Nuclear Deal.

The problem for these Indians is that the new Obama Administration unlike the former Bush Administration has a low priority for an American India. The new Administration’s top priorities are solving the financial and economic crises so that the US could remain the world’s top power and attending to the urgent problems of climate change.

So these Indians are bidding their time with their anti-China posturing and hoping for sudden breakdown in Sino-US relations or a future favourable administration in the US. They have seen how Japan, South Korea and Taiwan benefited so much from the 1950 Korea War, incidentally the biggest losers of which were the US and China. And, if China disintegrates, American India could achieve what British India had failed: the annexation of Tibet.

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 Post subject: Re: Is India a veiled threat or good neighbor?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:15 am 
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Thanks Ipc 1998 for an interesting article. I have long given up my wishes that India would become an independent country with true Asian inspirations as its earlier leaders. Later leaders or leaders-to-be are nothing more than trying hard to imitate Americans and their lifestyles, just because they have the outsourcing IT industries cornered. They could do so because they have a good command of the English language/technical knowhow and a cheap labor force. Fortunes have come to only a few and the majority especially the untouchables are still living at about a $1 or less per day. A majority of the voting public is uneducated and will vote for politicians who will promise to bring basic amenities like water and electricity to their villages. So who are the gullible public who will read the biased reports regarding the Chinese "menace"....? Yes, those who still believe in the white "sahibs".

Quote:
Decades have elapsed since the border war, but Indians still look on China through the tinted lens, which could merely produce untrue pictures and even distortions. As an Indian military official put it, 'Indians maintain the same national sentiments towards China as the way the Chinese do at the mention of Japan and Japanese,' many Indians actually have very subtle impression upon China, which has been translated into a very complicated mindset—awe, vexation, envy and jealousy—in the face of its giant neighbor.
....Li Hongmei People's Daily Online


What a stupid comparison by this Indian military official. Chinese had never gone into India to subjugate, imprison, **** or execute Indian citizens. The Japanese did horrific things when they invaded China and still has not repented for its actions on an official level. Token excuses have been delivered by some officials but short of official wholesale apology, unlike what the Germans did for the Jews. In the border skirmishes of the 60's, the Chinese defended what they believed was their territory and then retreated. The line they drew as their border remains to this day. I believe this border dispute can be settled without bloodshed if sober minds prevail. For some land, China and India do not need to annihilate each order with nuclear bombs. These two countries with long history of cultural contacts should return to the table and discuss what have sustained each nation before western influences. Perhaps they will realise that, together, they can help to bring this world to a level of civility.....to the days when Asokan and the Tang empires rule Asia and in complete harmony.


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 Post subject: Re: Is India a veiled threat or good neighbor?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:28 pm 
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As the economy takes off, more of the lower caste Indians who have access to education may be able climb the social economic ladder. Nevertheless, it is true that wealth is concentrated in the hands of technocrat business elite class who are the modern maharajas.

Besides disappointments in American indifference towards Indian hopes of building its military capabilities, the Indian government is too preoccupied with quelling violent conflicts among extremist religious groups. Their pride as the model of Asian democracy has been deflated by the destabilising effects of liberalism and its ineffectiveness in reining in funadamentalists and rebellious elements. India should therefore get its domestic household affairs in order before embarking on projecting India's power. In time, the Indians would learn that soft power may be more impactful. It is wishful thinking on the part of certain nationalist Indian politicians who aspire to advance irridentist territorial claims. The British had made use of Indian soldiers to gain control over Tibet but failed. The Americans would not want to be in close alliance with India to the extent that it would antagonise China.

Why don't the Indian officials think of turning the love-hate in Sino-Indian relations into more constructive endeavours? The Indians are intelligent people and could make better use of their creativity than writing stories to smear their neighbours. The Chinese have long been deferential towards Indian education. It should be remembered that a revered Chinese monk during the Tang dynasty travelled to India to learn more about Buddhism.


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 Post subject: Re: Is India a veiled threat or good neighbor?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 5:59 pm 
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[quote="Observer"]Thanks Ipc 1998 for an interesting article. I have long given up my wishes that India would become an independent country with true Asian inspirations as its earlier leaders. Later leaders or leaders-to-be are nothing more than trying hard to imitate Americans and their lifestyles, just because they have the outsourcing IT industries cornered. They could do so because they have a good command of the English language/technical knowhow and a cheap labor force. Fortunes have come to only a few and the majority especially the untouchables are still living at about a $1 or less per day. A majority of the voting public is uneducated and will vote for politicians who will promise to bring basic amenities like water and electricity to their villages. So who are the gullible public who will read the biased reports regarding the Chinese "menace"....? Yes, those who still believe in the white "sahibs".


My pleasure.

Right from day 1, independent India considered herself heir to British India and adopted and continued the same policies of the British imperialists towards her neighbours including China:

Quote:
India’s China War by Neville Maxwell

With their independence on August 14, 1947, the status of the boundaries of India changed from the pawns for the British to play with their imperial rivals, to become the cell walls of a new national identity. The Indian government followed closely the footsteps of the British colonists. In 1949, India sent troops during an uprising in Sikkim and brought the state as a protectorate. In the same year, India signed a treaty to take over Britain’s rights to guide Bhutan in foreign affairs. In 1950, India increased its control over Nepal and consolidated the "chain of protectorates" in the Himalayan states. Towards Tibet, the new Indian Government followed the British mission in encouraging Tibetan separatism. In its strategic and geopolitical thinking inherited from the British, the Indian Government continued the exclusion of China’s authority from Tibet and attempted to increase the Indian influence. The Tibetans hoped that the transfer of British power to the Indians would give them an opportunity to regain the territory that British took from them a century before. In October 1947, they formally requested India to return their territory from Ladakh to Assam, and including Sikkim. The Indians in return simply asked Tibet to continue the relationship on the basis of the previous British Government.

The Indian plan to continue with British policy was met with major challenges. The absence of the British power and emergence of a strong central authority with the establishment of the Communist China reversed the power balance. With the announcement of Chinese military marching into Tibet, India reacted sharply and threatened that it would support the position of the Nationalist rump on Formosa rather than the People’s Republic of China in the United Nations. A few days later, Chinese army entered Tibet, and Indian government headed by the Prime Minister Nehru issued an angry protest, deploring the "invasion" of Tibet. China replied sharply: "Tibet is an integral part of China, and the problem of Tibet is entirely a domestic problem of China," and warned that it would not tolerate foreign interference. In response to India’s avowal that the use of military would injure China’s reputation in the world, China stated that any governments that interfere with China’s sovereign rights in Tibet as a pretext to obstruct China’s membership in the UN would further demonstrate their hostility. Indian government changed the China’s "sovereignty" to "suzerainty" over Tibet and hoped that China would leave domestic affairs to Tibetans like what Indians did in Bhutan. China viewed the Indian desire to have semi-independence in Tibet as a preliminary attempt to draw Tibet under Indian influence, an inference neither far-fetched nor unfair. When China later established diplomatic relations with Nepal, China became an open competitor in what India regarded as diplomatic reserve. In 1950, after its failed attempt to have some degrees of Tibetan independence and buffer, the Indian government adopted a pragmatic policy of pursuing friendship with China, a central element in India’s foreign policy formulated by Nehru. As China confirmed its authority in Tibet, India did not support the appeal of Tibet to the UN.


Here are 2 documentaries on the 1962 India’s China War
The crushing moment: China India 1962 war - Part 1

The crushing moment: China India 1962 war - Part 2

The real Indian problem is that India is on the whole uncompetitive with China economically and geopolitically. So the option left for her to be ahead of China is to bring China down and this process is in line with aspirations and activities of the anti-China forces. So by pointing to China in 1998 as the justification for her needs for illegal nuclear weapon tests, India has softened US opposition to Indian nuclear proliferation:

Quote:
...... In fact, it took the world by surprise in May 1998 when India under an ultra-nationalist government, sought to justify its nuclear tests by citing China as its greatest threat. That was an incredible somersault in policy. I think the Congress criticized it. Nobody was asking India to explain the tests even though they were (rightly) outraged by it. To shoot off a letter to the American president, which U.S. officials leaked to their media, considerably undermined an average Indian’s pride in his country’s sovereignty.


Indian anti-China posturing will get more strident as her economy goes downhill in the near future owing to global competition, especially when Chinese IT outsourcing takes off. The Indian IT outsourcing dominance is declining and would likely disappear within the next 10 years. So in order to keep her world supremacy dream alive, she hopes to get funds, special privileges, advanced technologies and political support from the US by her anti-China activities.

Many educated and informed Indians including those are residents and citizens of western countries join the anti-China crusade and spread and incite anti-China propaganda and even outright lies while most Chinese people leave India and Indians alone:

Quote:
China is close to becoming a global Godzilla of the kind the Nazis had become in the 1930s. It is ultra-nationalist, racist, autocratic, monocultural and militaristic -- all vital ingredients of Nazism.

......

China has always been the biggest roadblock to India's rise in the world, but what we know privately we have always sought to deny publicly. It all started with Nehru's disastrous handling of foreign policy in the 1950s, which culminated in our humiliating defeat in the 1962 border war.

.....

At the Nuclear Suppliers' Group last year, China tried its best to scuttle the Indo-US deal. At the UN, China was the only country (apart from Pakistan) to steadfastly spike our dreams of permanent membership.

The Middle Kingdom is clearly the rogue state behind the clandestine transfer of nuclear and missile technology between Pakistan and North Korea. A nuclear and terror-supporting Pakistan is critical to Chinese plans to keep India bogged down in local insurgencies. A rogue North Korean state enables China to keep both South Korea and Japan off-balance.

At the Asian Development Bank, China's was the hand that nearly stopped a loan for Arunachal Pradesh. In fact, the clearance of this loan -- facilitated by India's strong diplomatic pressure on the US, South Korea and Japan -- shows that power needs to be projected when it comes to dealing with China. There is only one way to deal with China and that is by building our military, diplomatic and economic strength continuously.

Japan, South Korea and Vietnam could be our silent allies in this game, but even if the world does not want to play, we must be clear in our goals. We have to develop deterrent military and economic power to contain China and earn its respect. We have to dump the Nehruvian mindset of fooling ourselves into believing that China is a benign power. It is not. It is a rogue state under wraps.


[quote="Observer"]What a stupid comparison by this Indian military official. Chinese had never gone into India to subjugate, imprison, **** or execute Indian citizens. The Japanese did horrific things when they invaded China and still has not repented for its actions on an official level. Token excuses have been delivered by some officials but short of official wholesale apology, unlike what the Germans did for the Jews.

Stupid or not, the Indian military official is speaking the truth: many, many, many Indians feel that way.

[quote="Observer"]These two countries with long history of cultural contacts should return to the table and discuss what have sustained each nation before western influences. Perhaps they will realise that, together, they can help to bring this world to a level of civility.....to the days when Asokan and the Tang empires rule Asia and in complete harmony.

Unfortunately, today’s India is the reincarnation of the imperialistic British India, not of the ancient Asokan, dreaming of being the supreme power of the world:

Here is a comment made to this article:

Quote:
An alien Earthling
Jun 19, 2009
Reply

Well written!!! The Chinese threat is completely underplayed by the “mainstream media” scoundrels. It’s not a surprise since many of them are in the direct pay of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) crooks, like the sewer journalist N.Ram of The (C)hindu.

The fact remains that there is absolutely NO space for BOTH China and India to play a “dominant role” in a so-called “Asian century”. There is space only for ONE of these heavily overpopulated, glaringly backward (in terms of quality of life, HDI, wealth distribution etc.), culturally and socially primitive (female foeticide/infanticide) Third-World countries.

A second confrontration is INEVITABLE. The second one will be much, much bigger than the first one (a mere border war). It’s NOT a question of if, but WHEN!


Here is a comment made to another article:

Quote:
S. Menon says: June 19, 2009 at 07:38 AM IST

I think India needs a pragmatic and aggressive approach to contain the growing Chinese influence that threatens India's stability. We can easily achieve this by using an effective blend of Intelligence and diplomacy.. Our RAW can create havoc if it can penetrate to Xingjian and Tibet. Majority of the Chinese are not happy as the economic disparity between the upper class and lower class is growing. The intelligence should collaborate with CIA on this front and such unrest will ultimately disintegrate the stability of China. (Remember even US is under threat by China!!) Once it starts to disintegrate, the story will be similar to the former USSR. The new countries surrounds India will no longer a threat (like Tibet). Remember we can not defeat China on Military front but we can easily attain our goal by destabilising China. I think major powers will silently supports this and can achieve our goal within a decade!


The problem now is how to be friends with a neighbour who wants to burn down your house and rob you of your property just because you are more successful than him through more hard work and frugality.

In the circumstances, what can the Chinese people do? To forestall a probable unimaginable bloodshed and destruction, China has to modify the policy of non-interference in the internal affairs of other countries. The Chinese people have to help their Indian friends to gain state powers and promote Sino-Indian friendship.

After all, the principle of non-interference in the internal affairs was originally formulated not by China, but by the prime movers of the Afro-Asian Non-Aligned Movement of which India was one of the three leading countries.
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 Post subject: Any good reason why Indian missiles target China?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:28 am 
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India a non-aligned nation? They can't be serious! India has long abandoned the principles of NAM. Many Indians have complained that China is communist and opaque, ie, not transparent like Indian democracy. Well, they only have to look closer at themselves - loud mouth and no sense of shame. The American and western patrons will be extremely embarrassed by Menon's revelation of covert interference. :oops:

lpc1998's post quoting RAW :
Quote:
Remember we can not defeat China on Military front but we can easily attain our goal by destabilising China. I think major powers will silently supports this and can achieve our goal within a decade!


The acquisition of missiles trained at China give the "nationalistic" Indians something to brag about. This is the legacy of the cowboy Bush Administration. I hope that the Obama Administration will halt nuclear proliferation and military cooperation with India. USA has much more to gain by having friendly relations with China. India is just a pawn in the game of the neo-Cons and paranoid hegemonists. But Americans must walk the talk. We can't make friends by pointing a dagger at them.

Quote:
India on Friday successfully launched a ballistic missile in the second such trial of the nuclear-capable weapon in a month, the defence ministry said.

The Agni-II missile blasted off from a testing site in Orissa and "achieved all its flight parameters without hitch," a senior ministry official said.

"It was a user trial conducted by the army and defence scientists," he said of the rocket, which the military says is capable of hitting targets deep inside adjoining China.

The test was the second since May 19 when a similar 2,500-kilometre 1,560-mile range Agni-II was fired from the same site, hitting a pre-designated target in the Bay of Bengal.

The Indian-developed 20-metre-long missile weighs 16 tonnes and is capable of carrying one tonne of conventional or nuclear warheads.

Fridays trial, part of the nations efforts to build a credible minimum nuclear deterrent, paves the way for the missiles mass production and eventual induction by the Indian army, the official said.

India already has the 3,000-kilometre range Agni-III missile -- the longest in the Agni series -- which can also carry conventional or nuclear payloads.

Unconfirmed reports suggest India is also building an Agni variant with a range of 5,000 kilometres.

The Agni Fire is one of a series being developed by Indias Defence Research Development Organisation as part of the countrys deterrent strategy against China and neighbouring Pakistan, which also have nuclear weapons.

Agni-I, first tested in 1993, has a strike range of 1,500 kilometres.


http://www.indiatvnews.com/main/newsdetails.php?id=1607


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 Post subject: Chinese should learn from the Indians - friend or foe ?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:24 am 
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lpc1998 wrote :

Quote:
Many educated and informed Indians including those are residents and citizens of western countries join the anti-China crusade and spread and incite anti-China propaganda and even outright lies while most Chinese people leave India and Indians alone


The Indians have a greater tendency to help their nationals and take collective action. It is more than a coincidence as we note many Indian professionals recommend their relatives or friends to join the same company and rise up the corporate ladder together.

Most Chinese would go out of the way or bend rules to help their own race. In some ways, the Chinese may not be as sagacious as the Indians try to speak in local accented English in public to impress as well as not to "offend" intolerant bigots. With the exception of the Beijing Olympics where the Chinese netizens world wide expressed anger at disruptions of the torch relay. The world was taken aback because they have never expected the passive, submissive and long suffering Chinese would is so incensed and outspoken.

Maybe there's something that the Chinese could learn more from the Indians in self defence.


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 Post subject: Re: Is India a veiled threat or good neighbor?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:16 am 
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Quote:
The intelligence should collaborate with CIA on this front and such unrest will ultimately disintegrate the stability of China. Once it starts to disintegrate, the story will be similar to the former USSR. The new countries surrounds India will no longer a threat (like Tibet). Remember we can not defeat China on Military front but we can easily attain our goal by destabilising China.
by S. Menon says: June 19, 2009 at 07:38 AM IST


There is a popular saying: "if you live in a glass house, do not throw stones!"

India is a nation of many ethnic groups, class structures, religious and political beliefs. Thus it is easier in my mind to destabilise India and bring about its disintegration. So far, we have seen the formation of Pakistan, Bangladesh and India in that subcontinent. China has always upheld a belief of non internal interference and thus has not agitated for the disintegration of India. China's close association with Pakistan is based upon a belief that Pakistan will help her to control the Muslim separatists of Xinkiang. Hindu India has all along aligned itself with powers which hold some forms of grudges towards China viz a viz USSR and currently USA. Class warfare and religious strives will be the downfall for India if this country continues its own merry way of afternoon tea, bollywood make-belief, cricket matches and polo games.


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 Post subject: Re: Is India a veiled threat or good neighbor?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:58 pm 
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The fact that small insignificant nations like Bhutan and Sikkim were "annexed" and became part of the Indian nation had not raised much fanfare in western capitals indicates the hypocrisy underlining the belief that India being a "democracy" would do no harm. I guess these tiny Buddhist kingdoms in the Himalayas have no choice, being land locked and lacking any natural resources. Forming a union with India would ensure their continuing "freedom to the outside world and continuing freedom to practise their live styles". However, their standard of living remains pretty stagnant as India has no incentives to put money into these "states" unless of course, they are of strategic values. And they are, especially now when India believes it has to exert its "growing economic and military power". So these kingdoms will never be in "shangrila state" anymore when two "elephants" decide to do a "bull run".


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 Post subject: Re: Any good reason why Indian missiles target China?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:42 pm 
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Meddy wrote:
India a non-aligned nation? They can't be serious! India has long abandoned the principles of NAM. Many Indians have complained that China is communist and opaque, ie, not transparent like Indian democracy. Well, they only have to look closer at themselves - loud mouth and no sense of shame. The American and western patrons will be extremely embarrassed by Menon's revelation of covert interference.


Yes, Indian Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru was one of respected leader of NAM:

Quote:
The Non-Aligned Movement (NAM) is an international organization of states considering themselves not formally aligned with or against any major power bloc. The movement is largely the brainchild of Gamal Abdul Nasser, former president of Egypt, Indian Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru and Yugoslav president Josip Broz Tito. It was founded in April 1955; as of 2007, it has 118 members.


Following the outbreak of 1962 India’s China War, India lost the respect of the non-alignment movement when the new independent countries realised that the Indian government was following closely the footsteps of the British colonists in grabbing Chinese territories and had the full backing of the imperialist powers:
Quote:

India’s China War by Neville Maxwell

As the Western world was solidly with India, the non-alignment countries whose leadership India aspired were reserved and wary. An Indian correspondent in the Middle East reported: "Not a single expression of sympathy for India has come from any Arab Government, any political party or newspaper, or public personality even a week after the invasion." Another in Africa reported that Kenyatta and other leaders were non-committal while Nkrumah of Ghana went farther by rebuking Britain for its offers of military assistance to India. He wrote to the British Prime Minister, Macmillan: "Whatever the rights and wrongs of the present struggle between India and China, I am sure that we can all serve the cause of peace best by refraining from any action that may aggravate the situation." Since Nehru just visited Ghana, Nkrumah’s attitude was more offensive to India. Ethiopia and Cyprus were the only countries among those that attended the 1961 Belgrade Conference of Non-aligned governments to openly support India. Others showed more interests in urging restraint and patience on both sides while volunteering to act as mediators, the role often played by India so far. When Parliament reassembled, Nehru expressed his resentment at India’s friends, the "well-intentioned countries" who tried to bring about a ceasefire. "People advise us to be good and peaceful as if we are inclined to war. In fact, if we are anything, as the House well knows, we do not possess the war-like mentality and that is why for the purpose of war there is weakness … So, people talking to us to be good boys and make it up has no particular meaning, unless they come to grips with the issues involved." Nehru said that the "so-called non-aligned countries" (unexpected phrasing from Nehru) were confused and a little frightened of China, so "it is no good our getting angry with them (because) they do not stand forthright in our defense, in support of our position."


“Indian democracy” is an inferior offshoot of the British Westminster Parliamentary System. Even after 62 years of operation since the country got her independence from Britain in 1947, about 80% of her people still live in abject poverty with little or no hope for the future:
Quote:

....... It (India) is also extremely poor. About 27m Indians will be born this year (2009). Unless things improve, almost 2m of them will die before the next general election. Of the children who survive, more than 40% will be physically stunted by malnutrition. Most will enroll in a school, but they cannot count on their teachers showing up. After five years of classes, less than 60% will be able to read a short story and more than 60% will still be stumped by simple arithmetic.


Instead of focusing on improving the lives of Indians, the Indian “elected” government has squandered huge amount of the country’s resources on space prestige projects and on purchasing advanced military hardware which would become junk in 10 to 20 years’ time as the military suppliers re-invest the revenue earned in producing new generations of military weapons and systems:

Quote:
The coming war between India and China

Posted on March 1, 2009 by Moin Ansari

India has been buying weapons and trying to build them for decades. It has been buying junk from Moscow (Flying Coffins) and has been unable to produce weapons on its own. The list of Indian failures is long. Kevari Engine, Tejas LCA, Trishul, Nag, Agni Arjun and Brahmos are a few examples of the total failure of the Delhi arms. Indian missile failures

Despite spending humongous amounts of money the bureaucrats of the Ganges have been unable to make Bharat self-sufficient in arms production. It is the only country of any sizable size which cannot produce arms that it can export. This colossal failure of the Bharati arms industry has filtered down to the total lack of any credible manufacturing from Goa to Gurdaspur.

...........

Of course the Tatas and the Birlas have pulled rabbits out of their hats with huge smoke and mirrors that make the average Bharati think that the paradise of the shantytowns in Mumbai that encompass half of the population of the city are part of Shining India. Bharatis are incapable of looking at the extreme penury around them and blind to the filth right outside the Delhi airport. They cannot smell the stench of human excrement right outside the Mumbai airport and oblivious to the fact that 80% of the population takes a dump every morning on the railway lines. A nation that does not have working toilets for 80% of its population is proud of the fact that it can turn on a switch on a Russian launcher and a Soviet era engine designed and made in Moscow. It is disgusting that the country which has the lowest PER CAPITA GNP in South Asia and has most of the world poor declare itself a Space power.

A society full of untouchable, Sati, widow incarceration, and caste in incapable of any shine. The Slumdog power has 89 insurgencies with 40% of its territory under rebel control–this is “Incredible India”. Nothing incredible about the IT power whose revenues from the Call Centers are half that of IBM. There is no shine in the country where 450 Dalits and Untouchables eek out a living as slaves and 150 million Muslims simply survive.

The Slumdog power mesmerized by Bollywood (filmed outside Bharat) cannot come to terms with the simple fact that 80% of its population lives below $2 per day with the hunger index placing it below Burkino Faso.

..........

One out of every 200 Indians is already employed by the Indian Armed Forces. Three out of every four Indians already live at or less than $2 a day. Bharat Sarkar (the Government of India) has, however, now jacked up the defence budget by a massive 55 percent. Who is India going to fight with?

India has 3,773,300 troops, plus 1,089,700 paramilitary forces (www.nationmaster.com). India’s army is second only to China in size. The Indian Air Force, with a total aircraft strength of 1,700, is the world’s 4th largest. The Indian Navy already operates some 13 dozen vessels with INS Viraat as its flagship, the only “full-deck aircraft carrier operated by a country in Asia or the Western Pacific, along with operational jet fighters.” Who is India going to fight with?

India has six neighbours; Pakistan, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Burma, Nepal and China. India now spends a colossal $32.35 billion on defence, Pakistan $4.8 billion, Bangladesh $830 million, Nepal $100 million and Burma $30 million (according to Business Standard, India’s second-largest financial daily, “There is no apparent reason for India to understate its defence budget. No IMF conditions constrain defence spending…. But India continues to camouflage what other comparable liberal democracies transparently show as defence spending). Collectively, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Burma and Nepal spend $5.7 billion a year on defence. Who is India going to fight with?

Yes, there’s China and the People’s Republic spends $80 billion a year on defence. According to a report by Stratfor, the Texas-based private intelligence agency, “China has been seen as a threat to India, and simplistic models show them to be potential rivals. In fact, however, China and India might as well be on different planets. Their entire frontier runs through the highest elevations of the Himalayas. It would be impossible for a substantial army to fight its way through the few passes that exist, and it would be utterly impossible for either country to sustain an army there in the long term. The two countries are irrevocably walled off from each otherl…. Ideally, New Delhi wants to see a Pakistan that is fragmented, or at least able to be controlled. Towards this end, it will work with any power that has a common interest and has no interest in invading India.”

To be certain, India and China are not military rivals. Who is India then going to fight with? Bharatiya Sthalsena (the Indian Army) has a total of 13 corps, of which six are strike corps. Of the 13 corps at least seven have their guns pointed towards Pakistan. The 3rd Armoured Division, 2nd Armoured Brigade, 4 RAPID (Reorganised Army Plains Infantry Divisions), Jaisalmer AFS, Utarlai AFS and Bhuj AFS are all aiming at splitting Pakistan into two (by capturing the Kashmore/Guddu Barrage-Reti-Rahimyar Khan triangle). The News. Bharatiya Sthalsena Sunday, March 01, 2009 Dr Farrukh Saleem. The writer is the executive director of the Centre for Research and Security Studies (CRSS). Email: [email protected]" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false


For the year 2009-2010, India’s military budget shot up by about 35% from the previous year and western media show little or no interest in it, unlike their alarm on China’s 2009 military budget increase of 14.9 percent, over the previous year:

Quote:
The budget estimates (BE) for ‘national defence’ for the year 2009 – 10 stands at Rs. 1,41,703 crore, a jump of Rs 27,103 crore (about 35 percent increase in current prices) from the previous year’s revised estimates of Rs. 1,14,600 crore (the latter itself has increased from estimated figure of Rs. 1,05,600 crore earmarked for the year 2008-09).


Indian Democracy

In the 2009 election, 42% (301.96m voters out of total of 718.96m) did not participate in the election. Such is the extent of voter rejection of “Indian Democracy”.

Only 119m or 16.55% of the votes went to the Congress Party and this is unabashedly and fraudulently being hailed as a massive landslide mandate from the Indian people for the ruling Congress Party by the western and India media. Moreover, this “achievement” involves massive cheating and corruption. It is still very far from a true majority of, at least, 50% + 1.

Quote:
Some 300 parties and numerous independent candidates contested the election that has just ended (see article). They chose a bewildering variety of symbols: a lotus flower, a bow-and-arrow, a ceiling fan, a cricketer pulling the ball to the boundary. Of the 417m people who voted (a turnout of 58%), about 119m pushed the button next to an open hand, the symbol of the Congress party. That was enough to give it 206 of the 545 parliamentary seats. In a country more than twice the size of the European Union, speaking more languages, that is about as clear a mandate as any party can hope to win and—if Congress uses that mandate wisely—a wonderful chance to boost the welfare of the next generation of Indians.

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 Post subject: Chinese should not learn from the Indians
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:49 pm 
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orange blossom wrote:
lpc1998 wrote :

Quote:
Many educated and informed Indians including those are residents and citizens of western countries join the anti-China crusade and spread and incite anti-China propaganda and even outright lies while most Chinese people leave India and Indians alone


The Indians have a greater tendency to help their nationals and take collective action. It is more than a coincidence as we note many Indian professionals recommend their relatives or friends to join the same company and rise up the corporate ladder together.

Most Chinese would go out of the way or bend rules to help their own race. In some ways, the Chinese may not be as sagacious as the Indians try to speak in local accented English in public to impress as well as not to "offend" intolerant bigots. With the exception of the Beijing Olympics where the Chinese netizens world wide expressed anger at disruptions of the torch relay. The world was taken aback because they have never expected the passive, submissive and long suffering Chinese would is so incensed and outspoken.

Maybe there's something that the Chinese could learn more from the Indians in self defence.


Most Indians who behave that way are basically insecure and racist. The Chinese should neither learn from them nor support them. After all, China is a civilisation state, not a nation state like the western countries and therefore the Chinese are generally race and ethnic indifferent. What the Chinese lack is a good community life like that of the Protestant Christians, but free of superstition or dogma of any kind.

In this connection, the Jews and Japanese being religiously and racially prejudiced are far better examples of group unity and support than the Indians, but being so, they are disliked by other people for their antagonism and selfishness.

Nevertheless, there may be some ancient Hindu wisdom from which we could profit. Here is one of them:

Quote:
The Blind Men and the Elephant
by John Godfrey Saxe

American poet John Godfrey Saxe (1816-1887) based the following poem on a fable which was told in India many years ago.

It was six men of Hindustan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind

The First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
“God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!”

The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, “Ho! what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me ’tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!”

The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
“I see,” quoth he, “the Elephant
Is very like a snake!”

The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
“What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain,” quoth he;
“ ‘Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!”

The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: “E’en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!”

The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
“I see,” quoth he, “the Elephant
Is very like a rope!”

And so these men of Hindustan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

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 Post subject: Re: Is India a veiled threat or good neighbor?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:56 pm 
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smalltok wrote:
There is a popular saying: "if you live in a glass house, do not throw stones!"

India is a nation of many ethnic groups, class structures, religious and political beliefs. Thus it is easier in my mind to destabilise India and bring about its disintegration. So far, we have seen the formation of Pakistan, Bangladesh and India in that subcontinent. China has always upheld a belief of non internal interference and thus has not agitated for the disintegration of India. China's close association with Pakistan is based upon a belief that Pakistan will help her to control the Muslim separatists of Xinkiang. Hindu India has all along aligned itself with powers which hold some forms of grudges towards China viz a viz USSR and currently USA. Class warfare and religious strives will be the downfall for India if this country continues its own merry way of afternoon tea, bollywood make-belief, cricket matches and polo games.


The CIA, the Indian and other intelligence services have interfered and sabotaged China, and especially in Xinjiang and the Tibetan region of China since the founding of the People’s Republic. That is why the Chinese Central Government often reacts very strongly to even suspected acts of subversion. China’s existential survival is at stake.

India’s China War by Neville Maxwell

Quote:
“With their independence on August 14, 1947, the status of the boundaries of India changed from the pawns for the British to play with their imperial rivals, to become the cell walls of a new national identity. The Indian government followed closely the footsteps of the British colonists. ......... Towards Tibet, the new Indian Government followed the British mission in encouraging Tibetan separatism. In its strategic and geopolitical thinking inherited from the British, the Indian Government continued the exclusion of China’s authority from Tibet and attempted to increase the Indian influence. The Tibetans hoped that the transfer of British power to the Indians would give them an opportunity to regain the territory that British took from them a century before. In October 1947, they formally requested India to return their territory from Ladakh to Assam, and including Sikkim. The Indians in return simply asked Tibet to continue the relationship on the basis of the previous British Government.”



Quote:
Into Tibet is the incredible story of a 1949-1950 American undercover expedition led by America's first atomic agent, Douglas S. Mackiernan–a covert attempt to arm the Tibetans and to recognize Tibet's independence months before China invaded.

It was a one-year trek across Inner Asia to Tibet, for the agents: across black sand deserts below sea level, and over snow bound 20,000 feet Himalayan passes. Tragically, ill-informed border guards opened fire on the American party as soon as they reached Tibet, killing Mackiernan before he could reach Lhasa. Or did Mackiernan suspect that his mission was actually a political kiss of death for the Tibetans, and commit an odd suicide? The dramatic shoot out at the border turns and re-shapes as layer within layer of this true-life mystery is revealed.

The survivor, Frank Bessac, says that he took up Mackiernan's mission. He met the young Dalai Lama in Lhasa, the last American ever to do so there. The Dalai Lama in his first ever interview about this US operation said, " Yes, it happened. .. You see we considered him as something official. Because he had a radio and money…he was somehow, we thought, an American government official–he had a radio. So you see he offered…the Tibetan side was very much willing at that time to discuss things."


Standing up in the Potala the twenty eight-year-old American agent made an impassioned plea to the Tibetan National Assembly, urging it to officially request covert US military aid. This is what he thought Mackiernan would have done. Chinese spies in Lhasa followed his every move. Six weeks after he left Tibet, with the governments' official written request for covert military aid in hand, that document was encrypted and transmitted back to Washington where it landed on the desk of Dean Rusk, at the State Department. Weeks later the CIA began to air drop small amounts of military aid into Tibet. Weeks after that China invaded, claiming it did so to halt 'Imperialist Plots'. America publicly denied any covert US involvement as 'Communist Propaganda'. Tibet had to lie about these events, to protect America. LIFE Magazine published a sanitized version of the trek across Tibet as, This Was the Tragic Trek to Tragedy.

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 Post subject: Re: Is India a veiled threat or good neighbor?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:01 pm 
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Kebau wrote:
The fact that small insignificant nations like Bhutan and Sikkim were "annexed" and became part of the Indian nation had not raised much fanfare in western capitals indicates the hypocrisy underlining the belief that India being a "democracy" would do no harm. I guess these tiny Buddhist kingdoms in the Himalayas have no choice, being land locked and lacking any natural resources. Forming a union with India would ensure their continuing "freedom to the outside world and continuing freedom to practise their live styles". However, their standard of living remains pretty stagnant as India has no incentives to put money into these "states" unless of course, they are of strategic values. And they are, especially now when India believes it has to exert its "growing economic and military power". So these kingdoms will never be in "shangrila state" anymore when two "elephants" decide to do a "bull run".


Yes, it is “the Indian government followed closely the footsteps of the British colonists” and are supported by the western imperialist powers.

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 Post subject: What Chinese can learn from Indians, Jews, Japanese, Koreans
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:00 am 
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Correction : the word "not" was left out in my earlier post and other minor amendments.

Quote:
Orange Blossom wrote : Most Chinese would not go out of the way or bend rules to help their own race. In some ways, the Chinese may not be as sagacious as the Indians who make a conscious effort to speak in local accented English in public to impress as well as not to "offend" intolerant bigots. With the exception of the Beijing Olympics where the Chinese netizens world wide expressed anger at disruptions of the torch relay. The world was taken aback because they have never expected the passive, submissive and long suffering Chinese would is so incensed and outspoken.

Maybe there's something that the Chinese could learn more from the Indians in self defence.


My suggestion to take a leaf from the book of the Indians does not mean indiscriminate copying but urging the Chinese to be build up community spirit.

lpc1998 wrote :

Quote:
Most Indians who behave that way are basically insecure and racist. The Chinese should neither learn from them nor support them. After all, China is a civilisation state, not a nation state like the western countries and therefore the Chinese are generally race and ethnic indifferent. What the Chinese lack is a good community life like that of the Protestant Christians, but free of superstition or dogma of any kind.

In this connection, the Jews and Japanese being religiously and racially prejudiced are far better examples of group unity and support than the Indians, but being so, they are disliked by other people for their antagonism and selfishness.


Chinese is a culture rather than a race. It encompasses the assimilation of multicultural values over long periods in history and underpinned by classical core philosophies of Confucianism, Taoism and agnostic practices. However, it is more likely that most overseas Chinese congregate in the church to capitalise on its organisational set up, or inconspicuous interest groups and community schools to groom the young.

You could also tell that I am dismayed at intrigues of Indians promote their families and friends. Contrary to being insecure, they are astute at politicking.


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 Post subject: Re: What Chinese can learn from Indians, Jews, Japanese, Koreans
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:17 pm 
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Orange Blossom wrote:
My suggestion to take a leaf from the book of the Indians does not mean indiscriminate copying but urging the Chinese to be build up community spirit.


Thanks for your clarification. You are right that generally the Chinese tend to be individualistic and lack community life with the latter reinforcing the former and vice versa in a vicious cycle. Apparently, the South Koreans have a similar problem. Apart from the aggressive promotion by the Christian organisations, this could explain the explosive growth of Protestantism in overseas Chinese communities and in South Korea. On the mainland, the Chinese Government is very careful with any organisation that supposedly teaches only good, but with a long and consistent history of bearing great evil fruits all over the world. Somehow, these teachings produce violence, terrorism, dogmas and superstition.

So, the earlier the Chinese communities worldwide could develop good community life that has the least possible superstition and ignorance, the better for the Chinese people and their friends, and for the world as the Chinese account for a significant portion of the world’s people.

Orange Blossom wrote:
Chinese is a culture rather than a race. It encompasses the assimilation of multicultural values over long periods in history and underpinned by classical core philosophies of Confucianism, Taoism and agnostic practices. However, it is more likely that most overseas Chinese congregate in the church to capitalise on its organisational set up, or inconspicuous interest groups and community schools to groom the young.


Chinese culture tends to integrate more than assimilate other cultures, values and practices, both good and bad. Smoking is one case in point. It is not native to China, but it is now an enormous health and social problem in china, although not uniquely Chinese.

Orange Blossom wrote:
You could also tell that I am dismayed at intrigues of Indians promote their families and friends. Contrary to being insecure, they are astute at politicking.


It is good that you speak up against this unacceptable Indian behaviour. It has been known to be around for a very long time. There was one instance when the staff room of an institution of higher learning turned black within a few years of the promotion of an Indian to head it. Many staff were recruited directly from India many with qualifications from little or unknown Indian universities. It is understandable that people tend to have more confidence in and recruit staff from relatives and friends whom they know well, but when recruitment is favoured for those who, although little known or unknown to the recruiter, are friends or relatives of friends and relatives in a distance land, the recruiter has betrayed the trust the organisation he works for has placed in him. So, all owners and bosses would be wise to have staff recruitment policies and practices that strictly ensure meritocracy, especially when they have senior Indian staff.

There is something that all the Chinese and their friends (including their Indian friends) must know about the Indians: Out there in the cyberspace and elsewhere, there is a large group of Indians, often running round in packs, out to smear the reputation of China and the Chinese people and to sabotage the Chinese economy, hoping that any international business China loses would go to India. Below is an observation made by Candymancan, probably an Australian in an Economist.com article on an Australian-Chinese matter:

Quote:
Candymancan
May 8, 2009 18:12

I don’t see it right that each time articles concerning China show up at Economist, there is almost always the nay saying “Indian factor” however ill disguised pops over the commentary no matter what.(It’s rather rare to see the like “Chinese factor” in articles concerning India however). I thought Chinese and Indians are supposed to be friends as both had suffered outside oppression and internal strife only half a century or so ago.

Some deliberately make use of their sharper acid tongue or perhaps slightly defter English language skills to batter Chinese posters in manners unfit for serious posting of comments. Even one of them did express remorse about such excess and wrote a post on another article on May 7, 2009 6:21 and in his own words //Indians on this forum should just shut-up//.

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 Post subject: Our Indian Friends
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:39 am 
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For some of us, there may not be much antagonism at the personal level. With some of my Indian friends, we could discuss openly on politics without ruffling feathers. With others, we would try to steer clear of such sensitive topics. If more Indians were to be exposed to other cultures and read widely outside their professional and nationalist realm, don't you think relations would improve? They would not vote for ultra nationalist leaders who are bent on military buildup and form strategic alliances to trample across the neighbours' fences. Many Indians now have business dealings with Chinese associates living in different parts of the world and mainland China.


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 Post subject: India, a nation without a future
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:15 am 
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Wynston wrote:
For some of us, there may not be much antagonism at the personal level. With some of my Indian friends, we could discuss openly on politics without ruffling feathers. With others, we would try to steer clear of such sensitive topics. If more Indians were to be exposed to other cultures and read widely outside their professional and nationalist realm, don't you think relations would improve? They would not vote for ultra nationalist leaders who are bent on military buildup and form strategic alliances to trample across the neighbours' fences. Many Indians now have business dealings with Chinese associates living in different parts of the world and mainland China.


On the personal level, some Indians are friends, but many Indians are nationalists who hold the belief that India cannot be No.1 in Asia, let alone in the world, unless China is disintegrated and brought down. Moreover, many cannot accept the fact that China is now economically and geopolitically ahead of India, despite India was way ahead of China at the time of her Independence. Unlike China, she did not suffer so much destruction brought about by foreign aggression and invasion and by the civil war.

The Indian ruling class since independence consider itself heir to the British Raj, continuing with the British imperialist policies towards her neighbours including China.

The whole situation is aggravated by the party politics in India where politicians, especially those in opposition, find it exceedingly politically profitable to engage in the anti-China theatrics.

These anti-China theatrics have also earned financial, political and technological support from the US and others. So addicted is India to these foreign assistance, not only India’s future depends it, but India’s survival as a nation too.

In the longer term and because of these policies, the excessive spending on arms purchases and prestigious space projects despite 80% of the common people in grinding poverty and an irresponsible population policy, India is a country without a future, especially with the resumption of the Hindu-Muslim ancient religious feud which was frozen by the British colonization of the sub-continent. The military occupation of Muslim Kashmir is a time-bomb ticking toward a national catastrophe. Once when the Obama Administration succeeds in imposing the 2-state solution on the Middle East conflict, the full power of the Islamic world will be on Hindu India when the Muslims want their Mughal Empire back. The scale of conflict would exceed that of the Middle-east many times.

The Mumbai attack on 26 November 2008 is a foretaste of things to come. All investors must give very careful consideration to the safety of their investments before they invest one more dollar in India.

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 Post subject: Re: Is India a veiled threat or good neighbor?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:00 am 
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Indian families undergoing the pain for the loss of a child or their friends should be awakened to the weaknesses in law enforcement and protection of the minorities against criminals and racists. Foreign students will have more to gain by helping each other and unify themselves rather than to keep aloof amongst their clans. Coexistence and mutual prosperity of India and China should be the common aspirations of countries who want to restore their historical glory. The world is big enough to accommodate many powerful states and avoid a scenario of a sole victor and vanquished.

http://oneworldtalk.freeforums.org/post7303.html#p7303


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 Post subject: Indian journalist spread China hatred
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 5:13 am 
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I wish to point out to our contributors of this thread -- lpc1998, smalltok, kebau and Wynston -- that the SMH journalist covering China, John Garnaut, is an Indian even though his name (first name and family name) have been Anglicised. We give everyone the benefit of doubt but this particular journalist has repeatedly smeared and bashed China while the news editor condoned it and newspaper readers continued to be kept in the dark and have their views distorted by irreponsible reporting.

www.traineeships.fairfax.com.au/photo3.jpg

Note this face. He's a disgrace to his Aussie mates, ethnic Chinese and Indians.

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 Post subject: Indian behaviour may be dangerous to everybody
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 5:22 am 
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orange blossom wrote:
Indian families undergoing the pain for the loss of a child or their friends should be awakened to the weaknesses in law enforcement and protection of the minorities against criminals and racists. Foreign students will have more to gain by helping each other and unify themselves rather than to keep aloof amongst their clans. Coexistence and mutual prosperity of India and China should be the common aspirations of countries who want to restore their historical glory. The world is big enough to accommodate many powerful states and avoid a scenario of a sole victor and vanquished.

http://oneworldtalk.freeforums.org/post7303.html#p7303


The natural instinct is what you say for coexistence and mutual prosperity, and for mutual help, co-operation and well-being among all the foreign students in Australia in face of adversity and dangers, but there is a presumption here that most students whatever the nationality are sensible and rational people. Unfortunately, this presumption may not be true.

Online information on the attitude and behaviour of Indians is generally simply shocking, all the way down from national leaders to the average Indian. Instead of showing gratitude to China for not vetoing the disgraceful and scandalous US-India Nuclear Deal at the Nuclear Suppliers Group meeting, Indian External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee publicly humiliated China by deliberately leaving China out from his expression of "deep appreciation" to the world powers. 'Leaked' media reports that China did not veto the deal because of intense diplomatic pressures from the US and India only added insult to injury implying that China has no backbone to do the right thing.

Here is an extract from ‘How not to deal with China’ by Sunanda K atta-Ray (Link no longer works):

Quote:
Media coverage of Chinese Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi's visit strengthened the misgivings expressed in this column ("Freedom with responsibility", August 29). The subtlety of Mr Pranab Mukherjee's reproof in expressing "deep appreciation" of the "untiring efforts" of four of the nuclear Big Five in helping India obtain the Nuclear Suppliers Group waiver, while pointedly excluding China, the fifth member, was not evident in the bald accusations made by anchormen, panellists and columnists.

What made matters worse was that the accusers were obviously acting on tips by External Affairs Ministry officials. They should know, even if excitable TV jockeys do not, that no business can be done with a Chinese if you cause him to lose face. Our newspapers, news agencies and TV channels may be fiercely independent but if they had gleaned on their own that China incited Austria, Ireland and New Zealand to scuttle the Vienna negotiations, they would have gone to town with it at the time. There was not a whisper then because no one knew. The storm burst only on the eve of Mr Yang's visit. Clearly, the ham-handed leak being timed to cause the maximum discomfort to a supposedly honoured guest.

His pained protest -- "We didn't do anything to block it. We played a constructive role" -- sounded embarrassed and irritated. In Chinese eyes, media barracking was no different from providing asylum to the Dalai Lama or acquiescing in the hostile Tibetan demonstrations that greeted Mr Yang.


{NSG rules ban nuclear trading with India because it refuses to sign the Non-Proliferation Treaty, developed atomic bombs in secret (using illegally nuclear technologies meant for civilian use) and conducted its first nuclear test in 1974 (citing China as the justification for the test).}

China did not veto the US-India Nuclear Deal, probably because she did not expect such Indian ingratitude and also because of the tremendous goodwill at that time towards former US President Bush for attending the 2008 Beijing Olympics. So unless there is a drastic change in Indian attitude and behaviour, unless she abandons her British India imperialistic policies and unless she settles all the major problems amicably with her neighbours including China, China should veto any Indian attempt for a permanent seat in UN Security Council to avoid global catastrophe.

This is just one manifestation of the general Indian cynical disregard for facts and truths from the Sino-India border dispute to the 1962 India’s China War to online discussions. So it is hardly surprising that a report on student deaths in Australia says, “Nearly half of the cases involved students from India, despite their holding only one fifth of the total number of student visas.”

Indian behaviour, whether in cyberspace or in the real world, may be unacceptable to many people and it may become fatal, when such behaviour meets violent, brutal and bigoted individuals. So it is not advisable for others including Chinese students to have solidarity with the Indian students unless the full details and the circumstances of every death are first known. Otherwise, such solidarity would make others responsible for unacceptable Indian behaviour. Some of the other Asian student deaths could be a spill over of this Indian phenomenon giving rise to or resurrecting general anti-Asian sentiments.

Here is one Indian intellectual, Dr Gautam Sen, who is aware of Indians having problems with other people:

Quote:
Indian conceit about their supposed convivial pluralism and venerable cultural heritage misleads them into believing they are ineffably agreeable to others. In fact, nothing could be further from the truth. Muslims, a vast segment of the world?s population, dismiss pagan Indians with withering contempt. Arabs view them as lowly menials, which is precisely the status of the vast majority abroad. Britain?s elites harbour abiding animus towards Indian Hindus because they continue to blame them for their loss of imperial power and associated claims to elevated world status. In Europe, only France?s elites, infamously surprising the Nazis by their eagerness to collaborate in dispatching their Jewish compatriots to concentration camp deaths, match them in anti-Hindu vitriol. Xenophobic Christian America is proudly ignorant and sees little real difference between their own former slaves and repugnant non white Indian slumdogs. The Chinese harbour more racial malice even compared to the Japanese or Indians themselves and they remain malevolently poised to put India in its place once and for all. The priapic Pakistani jehadis incubate inborn hatred towards Indians despite mostly being Hindu converts to Islam themselves, held in low esteem by Arabs. India?s two principal international friends are allied to it for essentially opportunistic reasons because that is the normal modus operandi of international relations.

Indians need a harsh reality check to recognise these hard truths about themselves and how unforgiving the real world happens to be. They need to nurture a degree of cynicism and permanently erase their irrepressible desire to be loved by everyone. Much better to be feared, since they are in fact already heartily detested, and endeavour to protect their fundamental national interests. It need not be accompanied by feeling gratuitous satisfaction in harming others, but it would be legitimate to undertake fitting measures for self-preservation against repeated egregious foreign assault. ......


His policy recommendations in his article, “Indian policy choices in a hostile world”, includes nuclear pre-emptive against Chinese and Saudi cities:

Quote:
India should renounce its existing ?no first-use? nuclear weapons strategy the moment its own missiles prove technically robust and numerous enough to assure its second-strike capability. It should begin urban evacuation drills, build hardened shelters for its key decision-makers and reduce conventional forces on the Indo-Chinese border. The latter will convey a potent message of willingness to resort to nuclear weapons at an early stage of a major conflict. A discussion in the Indian media should hint at the prospect of Indian nuclear strikes against Chinese and Saudi cities if Pakistan were to use Chinese-supplied nuclear weaponry, effectively outsourced to it, against India. Let both the Saudis and Chinese consider what level of risk they are willing to countenance by abetting Pakistani terror against India. They will have to balance the dire cost to them of an emphatic Indian response, however apparently irrational, if it suffered catastrophic harm, against the ephemeral gains of using Pakistan to cause India grief. India?s failed Nepal policy should be abandoned and an implacable assertion of Indian interests advanced to curb growing Chinese influence in Nepal. Several additional Tibetan divisions might be sponsored to signal the inviolability of Indian sovereignty in Arunachal Pradesh. All these measures are largely defensive, but signal and threaten without actually initiating a direct military clash.


He conveniently forgets that Pakistani nuclear deterrent is the direct consequence of Indian illegal nuclear weapon programs and that most of the sub-continent was territory of Muslim Mughal Empire. It was British Imperialism that creates today’s Hindu India. Muslim-Hindu feud has ancient roots. Moreover, today’s India’s problems with her neighbours are mainly caused by Indian enthusiastic pursuit of the imperialist policies of British India, like pursuing relentlessly British India’s territorial aggression against China and Indian military occupation of Muslim Kashmir.

Another popular Indian belief is that India and China cannot co-exist because the conflict between them is civilizational, meaning that the rise of China must necessarily mean the fall of India and that the existence of one is an existential threat to the other. So India should destroy China at the earliest opportunity when China, for any reason, becomes weaker than India on the wild allegation that China will attack India the moment she gets the chance:
Quote:
Of all the threats which India faces, the biggest is China. Other threats like Pakistani Army attitude and terrorists are proxy threats. China represents a threat in itself. India and China are two civilizations and a conflict between these two will be a civilizational conflict. Pakistani Army and terrorism can be controlled by US influence. Will US be able to influence China to stop attacking India like it can influence Pakistan? China will attack India when others are busy and is advantageous for China. Will India ever attack china even when it feels advantageous?


The real reason for all these agitations is that many Indians are envious of a fast developing China, having overtaken India when, at the time of her Independence, India was way ahead of China in development and of accelerating Chinese economic, political and cultural influence in the world. Their feelings that most Chinese no longer bother with India as meaningful competitor to China on the world stage drive envy to madness. Indian politicians immersed in the evils of party politics find exploiting the situation expedient to further political ambitions or even political survival in Indian politics and an also extremely useful diversion from desperate or pressing domestic problems.

However, all these do not mean there are no good and reasonable Indians, but China and the Chinese people everywhere must always keep this “Indian Problem” in mind. They must ensure Chinese unity and that, at any time, any serious Indian attack on China would have unthinkable consequences for India.

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 Post subject: Re: Indian journalist spread China hatred
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:30 am 
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orange blossom wrote:
I wish to point out to our contributors of this thread -- lpc1998, smalltok, kebau and Wynston -- that the SMH journalist covering China, John Garnaut, is an Indian even though his name (first name and family name) have been Anglicised. We give everyone the benefit of doubt but this particular journalist has repeatedly smeared and bashed China while the news editor condoned it and newspaper readers continued to be kept in the dark and have their views distorted by irreponsible reporting.

www.traineeships.fairfax.com.au/photo3.jpg

Note this face. He's a disgrace to his Aussie mates, ethnic Chinese and Indians.

Image



Excellent! You have got one of them. You have exposed a faked “white” westerner who has been pouring venomous vitriolic lies, propaganda or inaccurate information on China and the Chinese people.

There are many of them, not only in Australia, but also in other countries, especially in North America and Europe; not only journalists, but also in various occupations. Those in the mass media are in a privilege position to do great harm to China’s relations with the western countries.

These Indian nationalists or Indian nationalist at heart are simply desperate watching the rise of China on the world stage, leaving India further and further away behind. They often resort to outright lies to smear China’s reputations, hoping at the same time any rupture in China’s relation with other countries would have economic and political advantages for India and the transfer of advanced technologies too.

Below are 2 comments made by one thoriel howard, probably another ethnic Indian with an anglicized name. Do take note of the language, the writing style and contents. They are so typical of the Indian nationalists out to smear China’s reputation and to sabotage the Chinese economy. Their consistent theme is China is absolutely evil; don’t do business with her. Occasionally, the foxtail is revealed when they stated that it is better to invest and do business with India instead.

Quote:
The World must realize that China has unilaterally created dams all over the places in this nation and relentlessly kill off greatest rivers such as the Mekong River one of the greatest rivers of the world!
Countless losses of natural resources and wild creatures relying on the healthy Mef kong River have been destroyed and going extinction!
In addition, nations have shared this river such as: Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, Vietnam have victimized too much for this murderous deed of destroying this Mekong River!
In essence, China is the worst nation in Asia in particular and the world in general to devastate the natural environment just like a great devil of the Asian continent and the world as well!

Chinese fishermen have aplied the uses of Potassium Cyanide (KCN) and explosives to fish in Pacific Ocean and other seas that this barbarians have forced countless marinal creatures to go extinction in greatest scales and all Asian nations look stupidly and worthlessly to stop this nightmare to continue in South East Asian Sea and Pacific ocean and elsewhere else!
In this sense,
CHINA IS THE WORLD MOST HARMFUL NATION OR CRIMINAL STATE IN HARMING THE WORLD ENVIRONMENTS INCLUDING THE WORLD ATMOSPHERE WITH ITS CO2 EMIISION AND POTASSIUM CYANIDE AND POISONS OF ALL KINDS!
THIS CHINA MUST BE KICKED OUT OF THE UN AND UNSC AT THIS TIME AND FUTURE! AND THE WORLD MUST SANCTION AND BOYCOTT CHINA AND ITS MADE IN CHINA PRODUCTS OF ALL KINDS TO SAVE THE WORLD AND THE FUTURE OF MANKIND!
Hopefully this warning will reach all world nations and their leaders and decision-makers to develop ways of dealing with the growing dangers of China and China or will face suffering much much more than present!
It is a very late warning and alarm to all world citizens in all corners of the world!

(This comment has been deleted)

**

CHINA HAS INUDATED THE WORLD WITH ALL SORTS OF CRIMINAL ACTIVITIES AND HARMFUL DEEDS!
This China has destroyed world atmosphere with its massive CO2 emission and initating a Global weather shifting affected by the Greenhouse Effect!
In the Oceans, China has systematically created extinctions to countless marinal creatures!
On earth, China has killed Mekong River and occupying lands of Tibet nation, Uighur nation, Sprattly and Paracel islands of Vietnam nation, etc.,
in this sense, China is the devil of the world and the ENTIRE WORLD MUST BOYCOTT CHINA AT ALL MEANS FROM STOPPING IMPORTING MADE INCHINA PRODUCTS TO STOPPING INVESTING IN CHINA AND MOVING ALL FACTORIES OUT OF CHINA AND LETTING CHINA TO LIVE WITH ITSELF! IN ORDER TO SHOW CHINA HOW TOLIVE AS A CIVILIZED AND RESPONSIBLE NATION LIKE ALL OTHERS!

SO,

BOYCOTT ALL MADE IN CHINA PRODUCTS! STOP INVESTING ALL BUSINESSES AND FACTORIES IN CHINA!
BOYCOTTINGOF SELLING ALL RAW MATERIALS TO CHINA SUCH AS OIL, MINERALS, AND ALL TECHNOLOGIES MUST BE BANNED TO CHINA TO USE!
LET CHINA USES ITS OWN BAMBOO AND DIRT TREES TO MAKE PRODUCTS FOR ITS OWN CITIZENS!


People all over the world, especially the Chinese, must be made aware of this sneaky Indian conspiracy and it would probably cease when there are clear adverse consequences for India and Indian businesses worldwide.

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 Post subject: Re: Is India a veiled threat or good neighbor?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:22 pm 
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What has happened to the peaceful philosophy espoused by Gandhi? Indian nationalist leaders are still living in the post-war strategic mentality of destroying the rivals many times over to gain the upperhand. Chinese unity is the the ironical and unintentional results that Indian ultranationalism. I'm sure most people would prefer not to be racist and nationalist for that may make them look chauvinistic. The moderate Indians should be weaned over to the side of reason. Hopefully, leaders who are more circumpsect and tolerant are voted to Indian high office to replace nationalist hawks.


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 Post subject: Re: Is India a veiled threat or good neighbor?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:03 am 
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The world can do without troublemakers who stir up hatred of another race or culture that is in the lead. I suspect that journalists like John Garnaut and Thoriel Howard may be just a tip of the ice-berg among some journalists of diverse and mixed nationalities. They may not be representative of most Indians or western journalists but the contagious fad of identifying and attacking vulnerable and innocent targets should be checked. While most think it's harmless especially among advocates of freedom of speech, the journalists' foray into occasional mischief won't be entertaining if sparks can cause accidental fire and explosion. The human race can be decimated in seconds in a nuclear war promoted by ultranationalists, radicals and terrorists.

Most readers who do not have indepth knowledge of India and Chinawould not notice these subtle provocations. Research has shown that political TV ads could influence voters' thinking, so could writing style. The malicious designs and perverted thrust of their arguments are well known to those who follow the news closely. It is important that we point out their deception, set the record straight, state the facts to counter their assertions. We want to promote peace and harmony that certain people are bent on destroying.


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 Post subject: Is Gandhi's philosophy peaceful?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:26 am 
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Meddy wrote:
What has happened to the peaceful philosophy espoused by Gandhi? Indian nationalist leaders are still living in the post-war strategic mentality of destroying the rivals many times over to gain the upperhand. Chinese unity is the the ironical and unintentional results that Indian ultranationalism. I'm sure most people would prefer not to be racist and nationalist for that may make them look chauvinistic. The moderate Indians should be weaned over to the side of reason. Hopefully, leaders who are more circumpsect and tolerant are voted to Indian high office to replace nationalist hawks.


It is not clear how many of the Indian nationalists are really followers or disciples (meaning people who really practises the teachings they professed) of Gandhi or are influenced by such teachings. What is clear is that they are far from peaceful in the ordinary meaning of the word. So they are either false followers of Gandhi or Gandhi’s “peaceful philosophy” is no better than that of the Dalai Lama’s. It could be just a form of supposedly non-violent revolution against British Imperialism. “Supposedly” non-violent, because the teachings of non-violence actually resulted in violence of some forms.

The fundamental causes of the problem are quite clear. The Indian nationalists want India to be well ahead of China in many ways like at the time of India’s Independence. So a fast developing China is simply not acceptable to them. As India has become too uncompetitive in many areas relative to China, free and honest competition is obviously a losing proposition for India. So the only practical alternative is to sabotage China’s development by all means. This course of action dovetails nicely with the anti-China groups in the west and elsewhere.

So sabotaging China has also proven to be not only profitable, but also critical for an impoverished India, in terms of mainly western financial and political support and of access to advanced technologies, although even these areas are shrinking as a result of better Chinese relations and interdependence with the west. Seen in this light, the need to sabotage Chinese economic and political relations with the west by the Indian nationalists has become increasing urgent and desperate.

In the storm of anti-China hysteria whipped up by lies and propaganda through the country’s influential media over a very long time, reasonable and fair-minded Indian politicians by themselves do not stand a chance in India’s party politics. So China and the Chinese people must not underestimate this “Indian Problem”.

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 Post subject: Re: Is India a veiled threat or good neighbor?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:33 am 
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XP12 wrote:
The world can do without troublemakers who stir up hatred of another race or culture that is in the lead. I suspect that journalists like John Garnaut and Thoriel Howard may be just a tip of the ice-berg among some journalists of diverse and mixed nationalities. They may not be representative of most Indians or western journalists but the contagious fad of identifying and attacking vulnerable and innocent targets should be checked. While most think it's harmless especially among advocates of freedom of speech, the journalists' foray into occasional mischief won't be entertaining if sparks can cause accidental fire and explosion. The human race can be decimated in seconds in a nuclear war promoted by ultranationalists, radicals and terrorists.

Most readers who do not have indepth knowledge of India and Chinawould not notice these subtle provocations. Research has shown that political TV ads could influence voters' thinking, so could writing style. The malicious designs and perverted thrust of their arguments are well known to those who follow the news closely. It is important that we point out their deception, set the record straight, state the facts to counter their assertions. We want to promote peace and harmony that certain people are bent on destroying.


The 2 comments are made by Thoriel Howard to a “The Wall Street Journal” article. He may not be a journalist.

Most ordinary people everywhere are often not informed of what is happening outside their immediate circles of friends and family. Also they do not have the time, energy or inclination to understand things outside those that impact their lives directly and immediately. That is why they are often being taken advantage of by the media, advertisers, politicians, NGOs and other organized interests groups to support things or causes they would otherwise not support.

Yes, the better and widespread the awareness to these evils, the better for the people, the society and for the world.

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 Post subject: Re: Is India a veiled threat or good neighbor?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:35 am 
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It seems that China's political-economic system is not doing too badly.
India is more democratic but somehow it is not doing as well. Perhaps, for a large, backward country, it needs a stronger central direction. And perhaps, it is hard to maintain stable policies over the long term when Governments and parties running it keep changing.

I think it is possible for both China and India to prosper and I think India could do vey well, given the distrust of the West over a very strong China, and its centrally controlled Government which is not the form they are used to and given the past hostilities the West had with Communist countries.

Also, given the salary gap, perhaps, India might benefit more in the next wave of foreign investments once the financial crisis is over.

Given the deastabilising threat of terrorists in Pakistan, it is important for the West that the economy of India must not be allowed to deteriorate. Another reason that the West would one to see India do well.

Also, from the climate control and pollution control point of view, these 2 big countries must be positively engaged as they are going to make a huge difference to the world environment.


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 Post subject: India could do well economically too, only if .....
PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:47 pm 
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Sang Nila wrote:
.... India is more democratic but somehow it is not doing as well. Perhaps, for a large, backward country, it needs a stronger central direction. And perhaps, it is hard to maintain stable policies over the long term when Governments and parties running it keep changing.


Instability of government is a problem for India. Indians have to find an Indian solution to this problem. In varying degrees, all countries with the party politics as practice in the west have governmental instability problems. The rich western countries could afford more than developing countries to pay for the hidden costs of the political system.

Sang Nila wrote:
I think it is possible for both China and India to prosper and I think India could do vey well, given the distrust of the West over a very strong China, and its centrally controlled Government which is not the form they are used to and given the past hostilities the West had with Communist countries.


Of course, India could do well economically, if she focuses on economic development and other critical problems such as the runaway population problem and does not make unnecessary enemies. She should not squander tens of billions of US$ in arms purchases and prestige space programs. Every dollar spent on such purposes would mean 1 dollar less for Indian economic and social developments. Moreover, the military hardware purchased would be junk in 10-20 years as the vendors re-invest and develop new generations of weapons and systems. However, it is doubtful whether Indian politics would allow rational decisions to be made.

It is true that India has been benefiting handsomely from the western fears of a fast developing China, but it is a very dangerous game for India to play, if she tries to exploit, aggravate or prolong such western fears because, in time to come, both the western countries and China would realize that they are the victims of Indian duplicity. The price they exact from India for their losses could be horrendous.

Sang Nila wrote:
Given the deastabilising threat of terrorists in Pakistan, it is important for the West that the economy of India must not be allowed to deteriorate. Another reason that the West would one to see India do well.


No, the Obama Administration realizes that “the US is not the enemy of Islam”. The US somehow gets sucked in into the Israeli-Arab conflicts. So if a 2-state solution could be imposed on the Middle-east, the US could not only extricate herself from having to back Israeli atrocities against the Palestinians, but also become a friend of the Islamic world. In such a situation, the Islamic extremists would have lost both their reasons and support to target the US, especially after the US withdrawal from Afghanistan.

At or about the same time, the Muslim-Hindu feuds which have ancient roots going back to the days of the Muslim Mughur Empire would escalate in South Asia as Islamic fighters freed from the conflicts in the Middle-east and Afghanistan would either overrun Pakistan or come to a settlement with her and congregate to support their brethren fighting the Indian military occupation of Muslim Kashmir and elsewhere on the sub-continent. With over one billion Muslims versus over billion Indians, the fighting will be on a massive scale and prolonged. Very soon, the Islamic fighters would forget about the US and the west who would be in the position to sell arms to both sides, a role they have core competence.

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 Post subject: Re: India could do well economically too, only if .....
PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:08 pm 
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lpc1998 wrote:

At or about the same time, the Muslim-Hindu feuds which have ancient roots going back to the days of the Muslim Mughur Empire would escalate in South Asia as Islamic fighters freed from the conflicts in the Middle-east and Afghanistan would either overrun Pakistan or come to a settlement with her and congregate to support their brethren fighting the Indian military occupation of Muslim Kashmir and elsewhere on the sub-continent. With over one billion Muslims versus over billion Indians, the fighting will be on a massive scale and prolonged. Very soon, the Islamic fighters would forget about the US and the west who would be in the position to sell arms to both sides, a role they have core competence.


The propsect you painted of a billion+ Muslims fighting a billion+ Indians is huge and scary. Samuel P Hungtington would be pleased to know in his grave that there is a sequel to his Clash of Civilizations. Given how mad people can be, and there are probably lots of them in India, and the Muslim world, it sends me the shivers. But even a Buddhist country like Thailand or Myanmar can be disappointing. I wonder what works in this world. The Jews are religious and look at how they fight the Arab world. The world is stressed, the Earth is stressed and the billions of people that are stressed is like a volcano waiting to erupt. Yes, I think you have identified a fault line in the Indian peninsula. And it would be really earth-shaking when it happens. Lets hope the good karma that Gautama Buddha left behind would help the people there avoid war and instability. Hope people would choose wisely.

Quote:
Samuel Phillips Huntington (April 18, 1927–December 24, 2008) was an American political scientist who gained prominence through his Clash of Civilizations (1993, 1996) thesis of a post-Cold War new world order.
- Wiki


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 Post subject: Mankind lives perilously on the edge of calamity
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 9:34 am 
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Sang Nila wrote:
The propsect you painted of a billion+ Muslims fighting a billion+ Indians is huge and scary. Samuel P Hungtington would be pleased to know in his grave that there is a sequel to his Clash of Civilizations. Given how mad people can be, and there are probably lots of them in India, and the Muslim world, it sends me the shivers. .....


Yes, it is scary, but the US wants to dodge the cross hairs of the Islamic extremists. So she would not only get herself out of the Middle-east conflicts, but also not to get involved with others that do not impact US core interests.

The Indian Union Government has got more than 60 years since independence to minimize the risk of the resurrection of the Muslim Hindu feuds, but unfortunately it has been obsessed in pursuit of the British India imperialist policies towards her neighbours and the military occupation of Muslim Kashmir has since been the lighted fuse to a regional conflagration on the sub-continent.

Sang Nila wrote:
...... But even a Buddhist country like Thailand or Myanmar can be disappointing. I wonder what works in this world. The Jews are religious and look at how they fight the Arab world. The world is stressed, the Earth is stressed and the billions of people that are stressed is like a volcano waiting to erupt. Yes, I think you have identified a fault line in the Indian peninsula. And it would be really earth-shaking when it happens. Lets hope the good karma that Gautama Buddha left behind would help the people there avoid war and instability. Hope people would choose wisely.


Many serious and major conflicts involve religions in one way or another. The Jews want to return to Palestine regardless costs, morality or human lives because, according to their religion, that piece of territory is “Promised Land” given to them by the God of their Scripture many thousands of years ago. They have got a religious duty to reclaim it regardless of the fact that there are many people living there for hundreds of years already. How good for the world, if they could instead settle on a fertile and beautiful island in a quiet and peaceful corner of the world. That would be a world changing event. Unfortunately no, their religion rules that out.

Adherents of other religions also have their own lists of religious obligations and duties to perform, regardless of whatever consequences to their own or other people’s lives, because they are told that those are what their God or gods wish. Failure to comply could have grave consequences in this life, next life or even eternally.

So unless society could be governed with the minimum need to rely on superstitions and ignorance, and fear and greed, mankind lives perilously on the edge of calamity.

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 Post subject: Re: Is India a veiled threat or good neighbor?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 9:09 pm 
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Quote:
So unless society could be governed with the minimum need to rely on superstitions and ignorance, and fear and greed, mankind lives perilously on the edge of calamity.


I pretty much agree with what you said about the Jews, although their effort to create Israel is superhuman. Imagine what could happen if such superhuman effort has been directed towards climate change or to reverse the damage to the Earth's eco-system. Religion is powerful stuff. Religion can misguide but there are also truths in religion. Today's society is also at risk of becoming valueless. By overthrowing tradition, diminishing religion's role, and revolutionizing pretty much everything, people now are very much influenced by the commercial factors so much as that society is becoming quite soulless. China has swung from Communist to the soullessness of a Socialist face and Capitalist heart, from overthrowing religion to many worshipping money.


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 Post subject: Jews are extraordinary people
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:29 am 
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Sang Nila wrote:
I pretty much agree with what you said about the Jews, although their effort to create Israel is superhuman. Imagine what could happen if such superhuman effort has been directed towards climate change or to reverse the damage to the Earth's eco-system. ....


No, it is not superhuman. It is extraordinary. =) This extraordinary ability is powered by a religious belief that they are their God’s only Chosen People, a status an ancestor won for them thousands of years ago by being absolutely obedient to their God even to the extent of the attempted murder of his only son. This special status is exclusive to the descendants of this ancestor and the disbelievers and offenders among them together with the rest of mankind who are outsiders and hostile to them will be destroyed and punished eternally in unimaginable terror when their messiah arrives in the sky, with absolute power and glory. They have been waiting for their messiah for 4,000 years already.

Believing that they are their God’s only Chosen People has given them extraordinary unity, but little or no regard for other people’s feelings or well-being.

I wish my understanding here is mistaken.

The establishment and defence of Israel was made possible by riding on US military, economic and political superpowers, a feat they achieved by exploiting the inherent weaknesses of party politics in the US by primarily dominating the US financial and media sectors.

Sang Nila wrote:
..... Religion is powerful stuff. Religion can misguide but there are also truths in religion. .....


That Religion is powerful stuff there is no doubt about that. It is also dangerous stuff. The question is: does it have a skin of evil and a soul of good or a face of good and a soul of evil?

Sang Nila wrote:
.... Today's society is also at risk of becoming valueless. By overthrowing tradition, diminishing religion's role, and revolutionizing pretty much everything, people now are very much influenced by the commercial factors so much as that society is becoming quite soulless. ....


Although religion’s social roles have diminished, superstition and ignorance is still very widespread, a condition the state influenced or held hostage by religion, and obsessed with politics also plays a dominant role.

You are right here. Sadly, people’s social and spiritual (in the widest sense of the word) emptiness is filled by commercial and other dirt and smuts. Most socially concerned people do not have the organizational support and missionary zeal of the religious believers. Only if most ordinary people have community lives with minimum superstition and ignorance, things will evolve very differently from today’s dying families and country.

Sang Nila wrote:
..... China has swung from Communist to the soullessness of a Socialist face and Capitalist heart, from overthrowing religion to many worshipping money.


Unfortunately, you appear to be substantially right at this point of time. China is catching some of the serious social diseases that are bringing down the mighty west. They are spreading like the H1N1 virus in China now. These issues are off-topic at this thread. Do you want to discuss them in depth? If it is so, we can start new thread, say, “Can China avoid the fatal social diseases of the west?”

On the point of overthrowing religion, has China been a religious society like in the west when she went communist?

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